GAMEDEV INSIGHTS #2 – UX Game Design – Marta Fleter
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Welcome to the second episode of GAMEDEV INSIGHTS – this time on UX Game Design!
Gamedev Insights is our regular series of interviews with experts from various fields of game development. Today let’s talk about growing professionally as a UX Game Designer. A role that is in high demand right now on the market.
What GAMEDEV INSIGHTS is about? We have the pleasure to invite and to speak to gamedev experts representing various roles in game development. We ask them to share their insights on their work in the gaming industry.
We’re here to help you grow within your own role and to get you the answers to the questions that are hard to answer through a google search.
Please welcome our guest- Marta Fleter – UX/UI Designer from CD Projekt RED
Here is our guest’s short BIO:
“My name is Marta Fleter; I’m a UI/UX Designer from Poland, currently in Warsaw, working at CD Projekt RED on Gwent – the Witcher Card Game.
I’ve been in the game industry alone for 7+ years now. I studied Graphic Design, of which I have a bachelor’s degree.
Having a background and love for art got me to the industry first as a graphic designer, where I was in charge of web design topics but also a lot of fun promotional materials like art books and even a card game.
But the longer I did that the more I grew hungry to switch from graphic design to game development, and using my past knowledge and experience I decided to go the path of UI Design.
Right now with several released and ongoing titles under my belt I can say this was a fantastic decision that brought me lots of joy.
And I can’t wait to tell you all about this journey!”
Ljubica Garic (Senior Recruiter – 8Bit):
So hi everyone and welcome to the second episode of Gamedev Insights, a space in which we host Game Dev Folks to discuss their work and how their work contributes to their games.
Today we will be talking about UI and UX design, those key elements in the game creation process, because having an appealing storyline, stick mechanics, and good graphics is not enough to keep the players from deleting your game.
Nobody wants to deal with unintuitive interfaces and unresponsive design. And because of that, we are really happy to host Marta Fleter. UI/UX designer from Poland that has been in the games industry for over seven years. She is currently working at CD Projekt RED.
Marta has built her way from a graphic designer to UI and then to UX designer. And she knows how to provide players with a comfortable experience while they are in the game, allowing them to be more engaged and play it for a longer period of time. She also has several successful release games under her belt to back that all up. So, Marta, welcome. We are really happy to have you here with us.
Marta Fleter (CD Projekt RED):
Really happy to be here. I mean, I hope I’m going to be useful for you in this interview and give some insight about what is this elusive UX, right? Because I guess it’s not still clear in this industry. Like, what is that magical world of the UX? Right?
So now we have you. We have all the time in the world to demystify it and hopefully make some people interested in following your path. So let’s dig in. What is UX design actually and what is its function in the process of making a game?
So it’s actually the most hardest question to answer because UX is such a broad thing to squeeze into like one sentence or whatever. <laughs>
But basically UX stands for user experience and it’s a process of making a certain product. In our case, it’s a game. Useful for the player, understandable and meaningful. The goal is to engage with the product or a game and have a good time using it, so it won’t be a chore for you in any way.
And it’s also the art of problem-solving because you can’t achieve usefulness or meaningfulness if you don’t know what target you strive for.
UX is a lot of different things. It’s not only like designing certain solutions, but also finding those solutions, researching the solutions, et cetera.
Why is UX Game Design so important in the game development process?
You can find UX people in the development process whether you’re making a small game, or a big game.
UX is this idea of helping achieve the bigger goal of development.
You are the support class of your team. You can find UX people in research, in testing, and in development.
The development process is like the UI phase, when you’re actually doing the wireframes and planning what should happen on the screen, et cetera.
UX is also a big part of testing, when you pick up some user’s problems and try different solutions.
But also, it’s the very first phase of the research. In the first stage of planning the project, while trying to answer what game we want even to make?
UX designers or the UX researchers help research the expectations of specific genres or solutions that are supposed to be in a game.
You can find UX people all around.
Back in the day UX was mostly a task for game designers. But because making games is getting harder and harder, and games are getting bigger and bigger, the people making those games need to have more broad experience in many different fields to make better games.
That’s how UX put itself into game development.
And since UI and UX usually go hand in hand, what would you say is more important? Like good UX or good UI?
I don’t want to get any UI designers mad at this point because I still consider myself very much a UI designer as well. Like UI generalist, actually.
I do all the stuff, but UX. Definitely UX.
Because the biggest difference between UX and UI is that the UI part is very much about the visual design of a thing. And if you have solid foundations for your design, then UI can be great because you have this spark of idea, you have the foundations, and UX is what gives the foundations the UI design.
UI can be perfect, but it’s never separated from UX, so it’s very important to have this nailed down.
And now me being a recruiter, I work a lot on both UI and UX roles, and I can tell you that it is really hard to find a good UX designer. Okay, you guys are in really high demand. So what do you think? Why is that?
Getting into UX for your first job is still pretty hard. And I think that’s mostly because we’re talking about game development specifically, I think that the role of UX designer is still very vague in its definition.
You can be a UI/UX designer. You can go into one company and they expect from you very different things than in another.
So I think that’s maybe because people would like to specialize in a raw UX thing and maybe are not very focused on UI. Smaller companies expect you to be like someone that does all the stuff. And that’s not wrong in any case. But still, there are few of us in game development because I think there still exists a barrier of knowledge about UX in game development per se. It’s something relatively new, because, like, just as I said before, the role of designing UX or UI was basically always pushed on to artists or game designers.
But since games got bigger and more ambitious, more people need to go into this development. So the game industry starts to poach the knowledge from other industries. We start to figure out that we can learn a lot from people that weren’t originally in this industry.
When I started, I had a hard time defining what is expected from me as a UX designer. Because as I said, a lot of people have different ideas about what it is.
Tthere are not enough of us, because we are all over the place. UX designers are doing UI, UX designers are doing research. And maybe it’s based on expectations. We need to define it for this industry. What is a UI designer and what is a UX designer.
And then maybe people will start schooling themselves better in those disciplines per se, and perhaps they will be more of us?
But yeah, I hope me being here would give some ideas to younger people, because I know that people would want to go into UI and UX, but they are discouraged because it sounds hard and scary and not very understandable, but actually it’s kind of enjoyable and not hard at all to do.
Let’s talk about this. Let’s talk about your journey because during our previous meeting, you really emphasized how after this many years, you still are so excited about the things that you do, like the projects that you’re involved in. Whenever you talk about work, you have this huge smile on your face.
Why don’t you tell us what your journey actually looks like because you started off as a graphic designer and then moved on to being a UI designer and then to a UX design position. Could you give us more details about that? Let’s encourage some young following your footsteps.
Let’s do it!
It all started with graphic design. I have a bachelor’s degree in graphic design, and I was starting with web design and apps. That was the thing that I thought I we would be doing in my career life.
That was what I thought. And for me, going into game industry was still like a dream. A dream that maybe is not that accessible for everyone.
And boy, I was surprised actually.
There’s a lot of gaming companies around there that are recruiting, and I wanted to try out myself.
After being a graphic designer and web design for 18 months,
I decided to go into the game industry. I started as a graphic designer in marketing, where I learned a lot about player research ane even user testing. At marketing team we had playtesting sessions.
And having this knowledge about research and testing from the marketing perspective and having my background in graphic design and web design is helped me shape myself into a UX designer.
I really, really wanted to actually do games. Not only, like, support them, but actually, like, go into the development.
Five years ago or so, I decided that, yeah, I want to be a developer!
And based on my experience from marketing and graphic design, I said “Let’s go to UI and let’s start like the career path here!”
So I went to some Game Jams.
Game Jams are perfect to learn how to make games. And believe me, that’s not only sleepless nights and a lot of fun, but actually like a super noticeable thing to do.
I started to look for full-time jobs in UI and I built up a portfolio for that specifically. So that’s how it started.
There is a question of a portfolio because companies usually are looking for some in-game examples of UI and UX. So you’re saying that in order to build up your portfolio, you participated in this Game Jams and this is what you included there?
Yeah, that was also what I included there. I struggle even to this day to make a presentable portfolio with UI/UX exercises.
I had the same problems with websites and I have the same problem with games. Because how do you put in a portfolio, a screen of a game?
You’re not going to put like an asset with all the icons that you made for the game. Icons are just like a very small part.
I know that UI UX is not about the pretty art, it’s not about the pretty frames you have on your UI.
Yes, it’s super important that it looks nice, but how do I even show my process of thinking?
Because for the UI UX designer, I think that is more important: to show the process.
I wrote a small design document for myself just to have a grip of what how do you even construct those things? Writing documents is a huge part of being a UX designer.
And based on that document, I built wire frames in a wire framing tool, Adobe XD in my case. And then based on that, I made a final render of the screen of a UI. I put that process in my portfolio and it was very successful because it showed everything that is needed in this position, like the process you think, not only the final product.
That is really a really great piece of advice for anybody looking to not just like to get into the games industry, but to approach this problem of how do I structure my work in a good way.
So now that you have landed your first job in the games industry as a designer, what happens from there?
You quickly realize that you’re going to do a lot more than just wireframes and high-fidelity assets in photoshop for UI.
If you want to be an asset for the team, you’re going to jump straight into game engines. It sounds scary, I was scared a lot when that was asked of me. But from perspective of time, I see that it was a very good thing to know. Because, first of all, it’s not that scary. You have great tutorials and guides on the Internet, how to create designs and blueprints for UI, specifically in Unreal Engine.
Then you start to talk to game designers more. You start to know the process of making UI from the programmer’s perspective because you talk to them more. And so it gives you like, as I said pretty much earlier, the knowledge of how games are actually made. It’s crucial.
That was like the first bigger challenge as a UX designer because everything else came naturally. If you have a graphic design background, it won’t be scary for you.
It’s just like learning the process that you need to go through.
You have game designer that comes to you with documentation or request for a feature that our game is going to have.
You prototype this feature, for example, in my case, Adobe XD. That’s a great tool because you can make a full working prototype in Adobe XD, clickables animations, et cetera, and you can test it with gaming centers out of the box.
Then you take that prototype into Photoshop and you make the UI pretty. Then you cut the assets and that’s it. That’s the full flow.
So it was just sticking to that and training, like learning as you go, because there’s no way to learn stuff than just doing them.
And my first game just happened.
It was Urban Trial Tricky developed by Tate multimedia.
It’s a Nintendo Switch exclusive.
So it was like also like the challenge of optimizing the game for Nintendo Switch, which is not that obvious, but yeah, that gave me it was scary, but it was fun.
So try to have joy in what you do, and it will go crazy. And believe in yourself because you’re going to have people around you in your team that wants to do as a good game as you want. So everyone is playing for the same goal. And if you remember that and you’re going to click, you’re going to just do all your best and it’s going to be less scary.
For me, a game changer in perceiving game development as a whole is to always remember that, yes, we are a team.
We really strive for the same, doing different things in this project. We maybe have some different visions on some parts, but in the end, we all strive to do the best game that we can, right? Having this in mind helps a lot in getting along. So remember that.
Don’t be afraid to ask. People have answers for you if you don’t know something.
I didn’t know a thing about Unreal Engine, seeing this thing for the very first time when I just got the job. I didn’t expect it.
And if it wasn’t for the super cool support for programmers and other game designers that just showed me around (and YouTube tutorials, of course.)
But still, it’s always cool to have those friends in the corner, and they are there. Just ask, make friends. It’ll be fun. It’ll be all right.
Yeah, that’s pretty good universal advice, but we’ll discuss it in more detail later. But now that you mentioned the games that you have worked on, so I know that you have worked on multiple platforms, so we have PC console, mobile games, you have worked on premium games, on free to play games.
You also mentioned, that a big learning curve for you was working on a premium game from beginning to end and then coming to a project like Gwent, which is a live game. Looking back, could you share more detail about all the differences between working on these types of games and different platforms?
What are the challenges that you encounter on premium games or on free to play games?
If I can pinpoint one point in my career that was a turnaround, it was definitely like switching from premium to free to play.
Like, I was warned that “don’t be scared, but it’s going to be very different.”
And I was like, “what’s different? It’s still a game, right?”
It is very much different to develop UI/UX for a live product than an actual game that you’re going to start and then finish.
And the thing that changes the most is that you need to start thinking about a finished product that you build upon.
So even like the game, when it was developed before release.
You need to think about making the experience very flexible because you never know how this game is going to evolve. This was the first challenge.
I know you can say that every UI or UX should be, in a way, flexible, and that is true because game design involves a lot of iteration and changes, but it’s even challenging in free to play because these are evolving games that can change in very drastic ways sometimes.
I jumped into Gwent when it was already released. So my challenge in this project was to build upon what is already the foundation and make features for Gwent.
It’s challenging because you need to take into consideration the player base that already exists, the expectations that already exist, this art guide that already exists, and the technical difficulties that the project has.
These are the frames that you need to accommodate in thinking about the design process.
That’s very different than making the premium game from start to finish because you have this freedom that you actually like doing it from scratch. And you don’t need to worry that much about what is going to happen with your product when you release it. So, like a 180 switch in mindset alone.
Do things get more complicated once you join a bigger company, a bigger team? How does that differ, being the only UI/UX person on the team and then working with a team of people on the same thing?
I stopped feeling alone in what I do when I joined Gwent.
I joined a team of existing UX designers and artists. And it was pretty refreshing because every idea that I had, every problem that we needed solving had more heads to think about it.
You could discuss your problems and your ideas with someone, and that’s the biggest game changer. Because when it comes to the whole development process, in bigger companies, you do less in a way that you stop multitasking that much.
In smaller companies, because there are fewer people, you need to put more hats. The research, the testing, the development, the UI, the assets, maybe even some designing in the engine.
In bigger companies, it’s not like that at all. You specialize in one particular thing or a process, and you do that process. And so right now in Gwent, I’m mostly designing features. I receive a request from the game design.
I am doing the wire frames and the prototype of how this feature should fit into the existing game. And then I’m making assets based on art guide that already exists. I’m making the documentation for other people to implement it.
I’m not touching the engine. I guess that thiss is the biggest difference between small companies and big companies.
But the tempo is higher, though. You have smaller chunks of work to do, but you need to deliver it faster, because the project is bigger, right?
You can specialize, cherry-pick what you want to work on, and don’t be forced to do stuff that maybe you are scared of or don’t want to do.
And wireframing and prototyping and writing documentation, are those the things you’re most passionate about regarding UX design? If you could cherry-pick, what would you pick for yourself?
I mean, that’s pretty hard to actually cherry pick because I like various stages of the development.
I don’t really like research and testing because I don’t think I’m good at it, but wire framing and prototyping like a feature that is requested, it’s super satisfying.
And dressing it up in UI super satisfying. When I had the opportunity to design something in Unreal Engine and put those Blueprints into my design and see it live, I was the most satisfying thing for me.
If I see a small widget that I plant or a bigger feature that we planted and I see our awesome programmers do it in the Gwent and then I download. It’s the best moment of every aspect. So, yeah, those are the things that I liked the most. Why making assets? Because that’s the most creative part of the whole process. That you actually need to think about and draw and plan. That’s the coolest part.
People who are looking at UX design from the outside might not think about it as creative as you say it is. So I’m wondering what’s the biggest nonsense that you have you heard about UX Design so far?
The biggest nonsense that I heard in my life that “our company don’t need UX.”
This company sooner or later will realize that UX is part of the development mindset. I’d say that hiring someone for the late stage of a project and telling them “make me some UX:
Like, how can you do a UX? That’s the most controversial thing.
Because UX is not a thing that you can give to someone or make.
It’s a mindset that you need to have at least from like, halfway to the project’s existing. That’s the only thing that comes to my mind actually.
What about UI?
That good UI is invisible. That’s a cliche that I had a lot of time during my career on whatever stage I was.
I know that people probably are telling this because they want to give the impression that good UI should not go into the player’s way.
I mean, it’s there to help the player and not like, make things harder. But a big part of UI is to actually be seen, but be very nicely incorporated into the world of the game that you won’t be interfered by it, but you’re definitely going to see it.
Right? Because UI is a part of the game that’s communicating directly to the player. It’s the means of communication between the man and the machine. Actually like UI, because how can you know, what are the drills like, what are your objectives? What they’re supposed to even do if there would be no UI? Right? And also, like, UI is not about just making pop up windows and main menus.
It’s so much more. It is those health bars, it is those menus, but it’s also like a lot more and it depends on what you want to achieve in your project.
Sometimes UI can be absolutely crazy and not even like an interface element at all. Like the elusive and most popular spine in Dead Space.
Right? That’s like the thing that people refer to the most times because it’s a UI element, it shows you your health, but it’s on the back of the player character. But look how many design choices they needed to be made in the project to pull that off because even like, the camera angle that you need to see the back of your character all the time, it was a very tough thing to do and they made it. So that’s why I guess that’s the most popular example. But is it invisible? No. Is it believable? Yes, because it’s like in the world of the game. So UI can be something very different, not always invisible.
Could you maybe provide us with some more examples of games, in your opinion, really have, like, outstanding UI and UX design?
What games have you played and told yourself, I wish I had designed this because it is so smart, it’s so intuitive, it’s so responsive?
Okay, it’s going to be a hard question, but only because I’m a person that likes everything. I play a game, and even if something is clunky and not that very good, I try to see all the good decisions that happened over there. And basically, when it comes to visual design, let’s focus firstly on that. It definitely is going to be Dishonored. Why Dishonored?
UI is all over the place. You have four or five different fonts in this UI, all those shapes, and here is a paper, here is like something else, and brushstrokes, like, whatever, and you’re like “That’s the point!”
This game is, in its nature and visual development, very chaotic, sometimes unsettling, very artistic, and a good UI should fit into this world.
Like it should be a part of it. It doesn’t matter if it’s just like an interface that you don’t see an interface on your ceiling or whatever in your house, but try to incorporate your design as much as possible into the game world. And Dishonor does it perfectly. It’s all over the place, but it’s still very much good in navigating it, and it just sits so well.
I need to give a shout-out also to Ubisoft games, especially the latest Assassin’s Creed games. That’s only my personal hunch that I have. But I think that they are using some established patterns in the UI design and I think that those patterns are very well made that you basically can take a screenshot of the inventory of Assassin’s Creed Valhalla make a grid out of it and whatever you are you’re going to make on this grid, it’s still going to be perfect.
They have this graphic design nailed perfectly in those games that I’m talking about, like the latest, et cetera. But when it comes to UX, it’s actually hard for me to pinpoint anything. Like right now. Yeah, I think I’m going to, just because I don’t have any examples in my head right now at this very moment. Games have experience all over the place and that’s why it’s hard to pinpoint very good UX. Because if you are playing a game and you’re feeling a certain emotion that the game is trying to deliberately put you in, that means that some UX has been put into it.
Because UX is narrative design, UX is the level design, is the game design. It’s a mindset you strive for to give the player the best experience with your product. So it’s hard to pinpoint because if a game is good and it feels good and you like playing it, it doesn’t feel like a chore. That means it’s got a very good UX. That’s it. It’s simple, but that’s true.
And going back to the visual part of it all, are there like, any design trends at the moment that you really dislike? And do you care to name them and explain why.
If you pick a random triple A game, a random realistic triple A game, what is the UI going to look like? It’s going to be black shadows with white icons on it.
It’s easy because how can you put a believable UI into a realistic world? You try to make it like invisible and fit the world, all this. But I think it’s starting to get really boring because you see a UI like that and you can’t even tell if it’s from Uncharted or is it The last of us?
Give it some identity. It’s also, like, a big part of the design process. And actually it was a pretty much challenging thing for me to do when I was designing the UI for Kao the Kangaroo. And I wanted the game to be stylized in UI, but not as much as, like, those games from the 90s that have everything, like renders in the wood and bananas in the the UI because Donkey Kong or whatever.
But at the same time I wanted to do it minimalistically but give it some identity.
And it was hard. It was hard because even when I was doing research for games, like of the scope, everything was on the spectrum, either super stylized or not stylized at all. So those are the things that I think we need the middle ground.
Marta, how do you actually keep up with all that is happening and trending in the industry? What are your go to resources to learn what other people are doing?
What will be the next good thing to use or to implement? Because you being knowledgeable and informed about what is happening is very important because you’re there to translate this. So, yeah, how do you do that?
You need to play games, just need to know what is out there right now, what is being called out by the players and the industry as good examples and good trends.
For example, right now I see that we as an industry are going more and more into the way of being more inclusive. It comes also on the UX part. And it was something eyewatering for me a bit when on the Games Awards this year there was even a category with the best innovation ideas for accessibility and God of War got this reward.
When I saw the amount of work that was put into this game to make it more accessible for people with visual impairment or something like that and it was just amazing. It was really amazing work that was done. We are the change.
If people demand it, developers give it it’s out there. You should think about maybe having it in your game. But keeping up with the trends is also like besides playing because actually you’re not going to have maybe that much time to play. You just need to see what’s out there at this moment and analyze those products.
There are websites that you can check what UI is on certain games. A few years ago I was making my own UI catalog. I was grabbing some game and screenshoting it.
Right now there are websites that do it for you. So keep on track with that and keep on track with technology in a way. I mean you kind of have to have it as your hobby I would say. Because if you need to be in the internet for such a long day, so many hours a day and research stuff and you’re going to research a lot of things just to stay in the loop, then maybe you could get burned out pretty fastly.
But if youhave an interest in what’s new in neuroscience or psychology, what’s new there in game development and technology you’re going to just have fun. But you need to put the time into research and luckily there are places in the internet that makes your research easier.
And can you maybe point us to some of those places like websites, books and also the tools that you think are necessary for a good UX designer to know?
So definitely I have a lot of things to share with anyone that would like to get this knowledge deeper into them.
So firstly let’s go with books. If you would like to start being somewhere around UI/UX, you definitely need to check some design principle books like something about typography, something about the laws of design information on the screen.
Right? This is your basics but I really like encourage you to read the book from Celia Hodent The Gamer’s Brain. If I remember correctly, she is actually like a neuroscientist that gets herself into development and was working on Fortnite from all the things as well. And she is super knowledgeable about UX processes and her book is like everything you need to know about the research, the mindset, the emotions that you want to have in the development in your players.
Marta, thanks a lot for sharing your tips, tricks and insights. And as my final question I would like to ask you, looking back, what is the advice that you would give to your younger self?
To just don’t be that insecure about yourself but talk to people more.
Don’t think that you can achieve something on your own and like strive for it to do everything only by yourself because people out there would like to help you. People out there don’t bite and really just ask around, look for the knowledge and don’t isolate yourself from help because really the world is full of cool people that will even review your portfolio if it is right for them.
Or just go to events more and meet people and see how development works. And also it’s also for me personally, but don’t be afraid of game engines like just watch how the drills work on YouTube or et cetera, anything you want, Unreal, Unity, Godot, whatever works for you.
Just get the drills, know how the processes make and try to have fun with it. It’s true, like being in the game development is a special kind of industry because it’s an industry that you work a lot. I mean it is demanding industry. It’s not like you’re going to just sit and scroll your Facebook all day etc. It’s demanding but it’s very satisfying and just try to have fun and not stress about it because everyone around you is as stressed as you are. So we all want to do our best.
Just try to have fun and chill. Also take care of your back a little bit more when you’re younger. Right now I’m 30 and going to yoga was the best idea in my life probably. Go earlier.
And with a healthier back, you’ll be able to make games for a longer period. It’s a win win situation. Cool. Marta, thank you so much for taking the time to be our guest. Really, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you and thank you for showing me what UX is all about.
What is it that you do, and most importantly, I enjoyed most listening to you when you were talking about how do you approach the problem. I think that’s a skill that shouldn’t be applied just like, to UX. So, yeah, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for having me. It was a really pleasure. Can I say something at the end?
I would like to encourage everyone that is striving to go into UI and UX. If you really want, if you want to have a friendly face in this industry and you need some feedback, write to me!
I’m really out there for you. All the young people that try to go into UI, I know that it may sound sometimes overwhelming because there is a lot of knowledge to grasp to get into it, but if you would like to have a portfolio review, if you would like to have a tip or something, write to me. There should be a lot more of us than we are. As you said, Ljubica we’re looking for fresh talent in the UX industry. So let’s make them.
Yeah, let’s let’s make people join the UX side.
Thank you so much for all of those listening, for sticking around and, yeah, make sure to follow Marta and check out all the games and all the books and all websites that she recommended.
Those will be very, very useful. Also, make sure to follow 8Bit and stay tuned for the next episode of Gamedev Insights.
Thank you all. Bye bye.
And that concludes our second episode of GAMEDEV INSIGHTS.
We hope that our conversation helped you get to conclusions regarding your own career as a UX Game Designer or a person working in game production in general.
Special kudos to our invaluable Senior Recruiter and an awesome spokesperson Ljubica Garic! Remember to reach her if you have any questions about open roles at 8Bit or if you’d like to discuss GAMEDEV INSIGHTS related topics.
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